Saturday, April 25, 2009

The Dark Side

"When you cross over that line of darkness, it's hard to come back. You lose your soul. You can do your best to justify it, but it's well outside the norm. You can't go to that dark a place without it changing you."

Unidentified former CIA interrogator

A few weeks ago, I started reading The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals, by Jane Mayer, a writer from the New Yorker who has been investigating the Bush administration's torture program for several years. Just as I finished the book, President Obama released four crucial memos on the program, all of which Mayer had discussed in her work.

The Dark Side may be the most disturbing book I've ever read about my own country. Not because of the accounts of torture, as bad as they were, but because it became clear after 360 pages of accumulating detail and revealing interviews, that the United States of America under the Bush administration had bureaucratized and institutionalized torture. The memos and reports released in the last week only confirm this tragic and terrifying state of affairs.

It is one thing to cross over into the dark side in the heat of the moment. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, given the horrible nature of what happened and the genuine concern about additional attacks, it's not hard to imagine some interrogators getting out of control. (Ironically, the experienced and highly trained FBI agents conducting interrogations in late 2001 and early 2002 did not get out of control but conducted several crucial and legal debriefing sessions that revealed highly valuable information. They were subsequently removed by the CIA, with blessings from the highest levels of government, and, when it became clear that detainees were being tortured, FBI Director Robert Mueller forbade his agents from participating in further interrogations. For a good description of this devastating turn of events, see "My Tortured Decision," an op-ed by former FBI interrogator Ali Soufan, who was directly involved in the initial, pre-torture, debriefing of Abu Zubaydah.)

It is another thing altogether, however, to systematically and rationally develop a torture program, to intellectually lay out legal groundwork over a period of years for making torture the established norm. In that case, we have crossed the line of darkness and employed logic and reason to justify our new-found citizenship on the other side. We have embraced evil and legally changed its name to "light."

"[Torture] has become bureaucratized. . . . Brutalization doesn't work. We know that. Besides, you lose your soul."
Daniel Coleman, former FBI interrogator

What has genuinely puzzled and disappointed me in the past week has been Barack Obama's inconsistent pronouncements on torture, especially his vague and weak call for the country to move on, to look toward the future, by basically sweeping Bush's illegal program under the rug. Apart from the fact that a torture program violates numerous national and international laws and treaties, and the president doesn't even have the legal right to decide what can and cannot be investigated; apart from the horrible international precedent of the United States willfully refusing to investigate its own involvement in torture; I am stunned that Obama doesn't recognize what a crucial moment this is in our nation's history.

You cannot cross over the line of darkness and then hope to move forward simply by ignoring that you're on the other side now.

If individual interrogators in the CIA and FBI are speaking publicly about losing one's soul from torturing others, where does that leave us as a country, when we implemented a systematic torture program and used our legal system to justify it?

If the United States of America doesn't deal honestly and responsibly with the Bush torture program, we are betraying the very ideals upon which this nation was founded. We may "move on" by ignoring what we've done, but it won't be in the right direction.

In a 2005 piece in the Los Angeles Times, "America's Anti-Torture Tradition," Robert Kennedy, Jr. wrote:
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."

The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.

Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. . . . Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.

Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Perhaps the most disturbing piece of news that has come out in the last few days is that a number of detainees were tortured not to gain information to prevent an impending terrorist attack, but to prove the non-existent link between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, in order to justify the administration's poorly conceived invasion of Iraq. That is, the Bush administration tortured people simply to satisfy their own political agenda.

Rachel Maddow and Ron Suskind discussed this issue last Wednesday, in one of the better segments I've seen on the torture program revelations:


"They were torturing people. No question. They did disgusting things to people. Their attitude was, 'Laws? Like who the fuck cares?'"
Former CIA official with extensive knowledge of the CIA program

As usual with systematic programs of torture and brutalization, the most troubling and creepy aspect is how many innocent people became victims.
The CIA, concerned about the paucity of valuable information emanating from [Guantánamo], in the late summer of 2002 dispatched a senior intelligence analyst, who was fluent in Arabic and expert on Islamic extremism, to find out what the problem was. The report he wrote up from this sensitive, early reconnaissance mission is classified top secret. But after he left the Agency, he described what he found. . . . [H]e concluded that an estimated one-third of the prison camp's population of more than 600 captives at the time . . . had no connection to terrorism whatsoever. . . .

A later study by a team of law students and attorneys at Seton Hall University Law School bolstered the CIA officer's impressions. After reviewing 517 of the Guantánamo detainees' cases in depth, they concluded that only 8% were alleged to have associated with Al Qaeda. Fifty-five percent were not alleged to have engaged in any hostile act against the United States at all, and the remainder were charged with dubious wrongdoing, including having tried to flee U.S. bombs.
Several detainees, including ones with no connection to terrorism, were killed during interrogations. Other innocent people were tortured in secret prisons for months or even years. Mayer writes at length about one detainee, Khaled el-Masri, a car salesman from southern Germany (and a German citizen), who was detained while on holiday in Macedonia because he had a similar name to an Al Qaeda terrorist. After being tortured for a few months, it became clear that the CIA had made a mistake. Yet they refused to release him. Someone at Langley was sure he was holding out on them. Finally, after six months, the CIA flew Masri to Albania, drove him blindfolded down a long road, and kicked him out of the car. He was later flown back to Germany.
He had lost so much weight, and looked so haunted and aged, the airport authorities accused him of using someone else's passport. When he arrived at his apartment, it was deserted and ransacked. His wife and sons, he learned later, had assumed themselves abandoned and moved [to] Lebanon.
There's so much to talk about. I haven't even touched on the bizarre reverse-engineering of the military's SERE program, which was developed to help American soldiers withstand torture, into our own torture program. In a surreal and typically incompetent Bush administration twist, we took a communist program intended to produce false confessions for propaganda purposes and tried to use it to extract useful information from detainees. As Rachel Maddow said before her interview with Colonel Steve Kleinman, former military interrogator, "What could possibly go wrong?"

What gave me hope while reading The Dark Side was the brave conduct of many people in the U.S. military, the FBI, various intelligence agencies, and within the Bush administration itself, who refused to participate in the administration's torture program and who tried to stop what was happening.

The right-wing and even the mainstream media may try to paint those who are against torture as being "on the left" or "liberals," but the reality is that the push-back against the Bush torture program began among people who were usually conservative, some of them very conservative. But they believed in the U.S. Constitution and knew it was being damaged.

In one of many examples Mayer details in her book:
"The senior uniformed lawyers for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines . . . all sent extraordinary memos of dissent to Haynes. . . .

The Defense Department promptly classified them as a secret. In 2005, Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican of South Carolina, who had been a military judge advocate general himself, publicly revealed the passionate memos. He noted that the authors were 'not from the ACLU. These are not from people who are soft on terrorism, who want to coddle foreign terrorists. These are all professional military lawyers who have dedicated their lives, with 20-plus year careers, to serving the men and women in uniform and protecting their Nation. They were giving a warning shot across the bow of the policymakers that there are certain corners you cannot afford to cut because you will wind up meeting yourself.'

The memos from the uniformed lawyers to the politically appointed general counsel were brimming with barely concealed disbelief at the direction the Justice Department was proposing for the soldiers to take.
Mayer writes in the Afterword of The Dark Side:
[W]hat began on September 11, 2001, as a battle for America's security became, and continues to be, a battle for the country's soul.

In looking back, one of the most remarkable features of this struggle is that almost from the start, and at almost every turn along the way, the Bush Administration was warned that the short-term benefits of its extralegal approach to fighting terrorism would have tragically destructive long-term consequences both for the rule of law and America's interests in the world. These warnings came not just from political opponents, but also from experienced allies, including the British Intelligence Service, the experts in the traditionally conservative military and the FBI, and perhaps most surprisingly, from a series of loyal Republican lawyers inside the administration itself. The number of patriotic critics inside the administration and out who threw themselves into trying to head off what they saw as a terrible departure from America's ideals, often at an enormous price to their own careers, is both humbling and reassuring.
So where do we go from here? It's hard to tell.

I don't know what to make of President Obama. On one hand, he released the four torture memos. On the other, he seems irritated by having to deal with the repercussions of releasing the memos. One day he makes declarative statements about not prosecuting CIA interrogators who conducted the torture, even though he has no legal or constitutional right to make that decision. Then, after people point out that he doesn't have the authority to make that decision - despite Rahm Emmanuel and Robert Gibbs declaring otherwise - he rightfully says it's in the hands of the Justice Department. Then, the next few days, he tries his best to quash investigations.

On such a grave and important issue, Obama has been indecisive and inconsistent, failing his first real test of leadership in an unplanned crisis. When he released the memos, he should have declared without hesitation that the United States of America would follow the law and investigate the Bush torture program. Period.

It's not a political issue. It's the law. If a Republican robs a liquor store, arresting him is not a partisan act. If a Democrat cheats on her taxes, arresting her is not a partisan act. Obama could've said he would pardon CIA interrogators if they were found guilty of torture, but by trying to supersede the power of the Attorney General and saying there wouldn't even be an investigation, he sent all the wrong messages. By bungling the release of the memos, equivocating when he should've been clear and strong (trying to placate too many people?), Obama has now turned the issue of the Bush torture program into a political one.

Even worse, the media narrative, fueled in large part by Washington insiders and often stunningly ignorant pundits, has devolved into chatter about the "politics" of releasing the torture memos and what it means for Obama. Perhaps in this age of impunity, when so many people have gotten away with so much, the media can only discuss the politics of breaking the law. Instead of recognizing the legal issues involved, or discussing the serious repercussions of a supposedly civilized country developing a torture program in the 21st century, we get to watch Sean Hannity offering to be waterboarded for charity and the smug Meet the Press crowd echoing Obama's empty "we need to move forward" mantra.

One of the notable exceptions to the glassy-eyed media drones has been Glenn Greenwald at Salon. His writing on this topic has been informtive, knowledgable and politically astute in a deep way. Yesterday's column, "Democratic Complicity and What 'Politicizing Justice' Really Means" was another excellent read.

But what happens if we don't investigate?

Already, as Mayer points out in The Dark Side, countries that torture are now pointing to the United States and saying, "See, they do it, too!"
Meanwhile, corrupt and repressive states, including Egypt, Sudan, and Zimbabwe, have all justified their own brutality by citing America's example. Egyptian president-for-life Hosni Mubarak declared that the U.S. treatment of detainees proved that "We were right from the beginning in using all means . . . to combat terrorism."
So, we've abandoned George Washington and John Adams for Hosni Mubarak and Robert Mugabe? Is that what America has spent the last 230 years working towards? Are we to usher in a new age of torture and barbarism at the beginning of the 21st century? Will that be our legacy?

I suggest you write to Attorney General Eric Holder (AskDOJ@usdoj.gov) and ask him to investigate. I suggest you write to your Senators and U.S. Representatives and tell them how important this matter is. And write to the President himself.

There are a myriad of critical reasons to investigate the Bush torture program. But there is also a spiritual principle involved. We as a nation crossed over the line of darkness. We are torturers now. The only way back from from the dark side is some form of confession and repentance. Acknowledgment. The cosmos/life/G-d/karma - whatever you want to call it - doesn't put up with sweeping things under the rug. Until we deal honestly and justly with what we have done, we as a nation will never be able to move forward.

13 comments:

Jeff said...

I suspect that the pundits are right about what's going on here. Not only do the pundits recognize what the political pitfalls are, but I think Obama has taken note of them too, and it's not to his credit.

I've been disappointed in quite of a few of his early actions too, not the least of which are some truly terrible cabinet appointments, but like you say, he owns this one. I think he's so fixated on this economic crisis and the budgetary battles associated with it, that he wants to steer clear of what he thinks will be the "distraction" of another partisan battle. Man, the destruction wrought by the Bush administration in various ways is going to take decades to overcome.

I agree with you that this cannot be swept under the rug. The only thing that I can possibly say in Obamas's defense is that he realizes a lot of lower-level prosecutions could never be made to stick under this Supreme Court (as presently constituted) because the actions were sanctioned at the highest levels under the aegis of the Bush Justice Department.

What really gets to me in all this is the reminder of how little it takes for people to slip into
barbarism. Every regime that has ever used torture has justified it in the name of "national security" and it only took one attack on our homeland to buy into what thugs and despots have done around the world for centuries. It reflects tremendous evidence of the cumulative loss of our ideals. It's another legacy left over from the aftermath of World War II and the Cold War. Did the OSS really need to be made permanent as the CIA? It's an important question, because this country has reaped a malevolent whirlwind over the years as a result of the CIA's existence. Can an agency like this really continue to exist in a Republic with ideals like ours are ostensibly supposed to be? Have the harsh realities of the world made the vision of the founding fathers obsolete?

The only thing I would quibble with in the post would be the assertion that:

A later study by a team of law students and attorneys at Seton Hall University Law School bolstered the CIA officer's impressions. After reviewing 517 of the Guantánamo detainees' cases in depth, they concluded that only 8% were alleged to have associated with Al Qaeda. Fifty-five percent were not alleged to have engaged in any hostile act against the United States at all, and the remainder were charged with dubious wrongdoing, including having tried to flee U.S. bombs.
I don't think I buy into that. What were all these guys from various countries doing in the middle of nowhere in places like Kunduz and Mazar-al-Sarif if they weren't hard-core Taliban or al Qaeda? It makes no difference in the larger picture though, and your points stand... Torture is wrong, contrary to our ideals, and it's ineffective to boot.

Hannity wants to be waterboarderd? I remember how cocky Christopher Hitchens was about it. He lasted less than 5 seconds. Did you ever see that?

cowboyangel said...

Jeff, thanks for the comments.

How are the pundits right? I mean, what are they saying that you think is right? Ignore it and move on?

The Bush administration definitely wrought a major disaster upon our country at so many levels. Decades - that sounds correct.

a lot of lower-level prosecutions could never be made to stick under this Supreme Court (as presently constituted) because the actions were sanctioned at the highest levels under the aegis of the Bush Justice Department.1) Even if that's the case, it's not Obama's place to say we're not going to investigate them. It's a legal matter. He sounded like Imperial Bush saying that. "I don't give a damn about the law - I'm the decider."

3) Whatever happened to the Nuremberg Trials? Why is no one mentioning that when they talk about this subject? I thought we decided then that low-level people were to be held responsible for their actions. That's one of the main things I grew up believing. You can't just say, "I was taking orders." We certainly didn't have problems prosecuting lower-level people when they weren't Americans. Have we just decided that the Nuremberg Trials don't pertain to us?

While the CIA has been responsible for a lot of bad stuff, and were in this case as well, I don't see how a country can exist without a national intelligence agency. Even corporations have intelligence arms now. They can, however, be regulated. We did that in the 1970s. Bush just undid most of the legislative work that had been done. But they're always going to push boundaries. You need a strong president to keep them in check.

What were all these guys from various countries doing in the middle of nowhere in places like Kunduz and Mazar-al-Sarif if they weren't hard-core Taliban or al Qaeda?Most of the people in Guantanamo came from bounty hunters from various countries that we paid to catch people. They didn't really give a damn what people were doing where. It's one of the uglier and least known aspects of what we've been doing. When you read the stories, you realize pretty quickly how it can happen. Someone's visiting a family member when the war breaks out. Or, in the case of Masri, you're a German citizen on holiday in Macedonia, and you happen to have a similar name to a real terrorist. But, since so few of our intelligence people know Arabic or anything about Islam or the Middle East, you're a bad guy. I suggest you read the book and discover for yourself.

Jeff said...

William,

How are the pundits right? I mean, what are they saying that you think is right? Ignore it and move on?What I was trying to say was that the pundits are right in their analysis of what the politics of this are, and as I said, it's not to Obama's credit.

Even if that's the case, it's not Obama's place to say we're not going to investigate them. It's a legal matter. He sounded like Imperial Bush saying that. "I don't give a damn about the law - I'm the decider."
It's a real stretch to compare Obama to Bush on that score. Let's not take the teeth out of useful metaphors by applying them inaccurately. Obama understands constitutional law pretty well. Yes, it's a cynical decision on his part, not to expend political capital on prosecuting cases he knows he will lose, setting bad precedent in the process. Why is it up to him anyway? Why don't you take the Democratic congress to task? They represent the legislative branch, not him.

Most of the people in Guantanamo came from bounty hunters from various countries that we paid to catch people. They didn't really give a damn what people were doing where.
Most of them? I've read Susskind, I can read the others, but isn't it a fact that most of the detainess at Guantanamo were captured in the early days of the war in Afghanistan? You tell me what guys from Jordan and Yemen and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were doing in one of the most remote and godforsaken places on the planet, with nothing going on there but sectarian battles. C'mon, William. They weren't working for the UN or Doctors Without Borders. Torturing these people at Guantanamo and holding them without trial was wrong, but these do tend to be bad guys, mostly low-level Taliban/AQ. That's why the Obama administration is in such a fix. Nobody knows what to do with these guys, and that's why the European countries who have been screaming their heads off over this for the last 8 years want no part of them either.

While the CIA has been responsible for a lot of bad stuff, and were in this case as well, I don't see how a country can exist without a national intelligence agency. Even corporations have intelligence arms now. They can, however, be regulated. We did that in the 1970s.
You may be right, they may be necessary, but any organization that operates out of secrecy by necessity is always going to keep secrets from it's own overseers and will have rogue elements within it. I'm not convinced that the Church hearings in the 1970s got to the bottom of things at all. And if corporations have their own intelligence arms now, our democracy really is dead.

crystal said...

I don't really understand what's going on with Obama. I need to read more about the whole thing. I agree, though - when others tortured and committed war crimes, we were all over them. I remember watching that old movie about the Nuremberg Trials.

crystal said...

Heh - just saw this cartoon.

Liam said...

Yeah, I wish Obama had handled this whole thing better. To a certain extent I understand what he wants to do, which is to focus on crises that are very serious and in some ways more immediate than this one, but even so it seems he's stumbling. I think also a lot of the way he has worked with certain issues is due to the fact that he knows that as much as people love him now, he doesn't have an infinite amount of political capital, and he has huge issues to address. The economy is not going to get better immediately, and people will get impatient.

I don't know. I would like to think that something as simple as enforcing the law could be kept away from politics, especially given the low support the GOP has right now. At the same time, I'm not sure that the majority of the country will support a prosecution. Even after the last election, I still distrust the intelligence and emotional maturity of the American people. We knew about torture in 2004, yet Bush still got re-elected. I think people will resist being told that the US has become the bad guys. I think there will be denial.

Which is not to say Obama shouldn't show more leadership on this issue. But part of me can imagine a situation in which Sarah Palin is elected in 2012 because the GOP gain control of the narrative again with the story "Obama went on a partisan witch-hunt and spent his time persecuting brave Americans instead of the terrorists, because he cares more about what the UN says than American sovereignty."

I guess I still have GOP PTSD.

cowboyangel said...

Jeff,

Thanks for the good discussion.

It's a real stretch to compare Obama to Bush on that score. Let's not take the teeth out of useful metaphors by applying them inaccurately. Well, if this were the first instance of Obama acting Bush-like in terms of executive power - my reference to an imperial presidency - I might agree with you. But, as much as I like the guy, he's showing early signs of not only following in Bush's footsteps on various aspects of executive power, but even going beyond Bush in some cases. From "New and Worse Secrecy and Immunity Claims from the Obama DOJ": Unlike in the prior cases where the Obama DOJ embraced the Bush theory of state secrets -- in which the Obama DOJ was simply maintaining already-asserted arguments in those lawsuits by the Bush DOJ -- the motion filed on Friday was the first response of any kind to this lawsuit by the Government. . . . Yet they responded exactly as the Bush DOJ would have. This demonstrates that the Obama DOJ plans to invoke the exact radical doctrines of executive secrecy which Bush used -- not only when the Obama DOJ is taking over a case from the Bush DOJ, but even when they are deciding what response should be made in the first instance. Everything for which Bush critics excoriated the Bush DOJ -- using an absurdly broad rendition of "state secrets" to block entire lawsuits from proceeding even where they allege radical lawbreaking by the President and inventing new claims of absolute legal immunity -- are now things the Obama DOJ has left no doubt it intends to embrace itself.In the current case, there seem to be two possibilities: 1) Obama inadvertently overstepped his executive authority by saying there wouldn't be an investigation, or 2) He purposefully tried to overstep his authority. I doubt the first case, because, as you point out, he understands constitutional law pretty well. That leaves me to believe the second scenario is more likely. He tried to use his executive power to affect the course of things, even when it wasn't within his jurisdiction. Then, he had to back off. I'm not saying Obama is the same as Bush, but I do think he's showing early tendencies to either maintain or expand presidential power that was brought to an imperial level under Bush & Cheney. I don't like where he's going with some of this.

FISKING! Sorry!
Why is it up to him anyway? Why don't you take the Democratic congress to task? Because he's the one who brought all of this up to begin with, first by releasing the memos, second, by trying to intervene in the investigation, third, by trying to quash congress from doing anything. Up until about Friday of this past week, it was all his baby. The Democratic congress can be blamed for various problems in this whole ugly affair, going back a few years. I agree with you on that. But the last two weeks has b=mainly been about Obama and his actions and reactions.

On the number of non-terrorist prisoners in Guantanamo: From the same passage I quoted about the Seton Hall study - "The overwhelming majority [of detainees in Guantanamo] - all but 5 percent - had been captured by non-U.S. players, many of whom were bounty hunters."

Obviously, there are some genuinely bad terrorists being held in Guantanamo. I was talking about the pretty high number of people who weren't really terrorists. They were being tortured as well. You want to argue about the numbers, you'll have to take it up with Mayer and the people who did the Seton Hall study. And the CIA senior analyst who was so concerned after investigating Guantanamo that he wrote a "troubling report" in which he "made clear that he believed that the United States was committing war crimes by holding and questioning innocent people in such inhumane ways. . . . The report wasn't written by a bleeding-heart human rights group; it was written by a tough and highly experienced CIA analyst whose career had been spent fighting terrorists."

And if corporations have their own intelligence arms now, our democracy really is dead.Then, unfortunately, our democracy is dead.

It's scary stuff, I know. And the more books I read, the more I'm alarmed, because it seems that half of the smart, high-level intelligence people being interviewed are now working in the private sector. I have no idea where this is going to lead us.

I wonder, though, that the recent economic situation might not bring about some changes?

cowboyangel said...

Crystal,

Thanks for the cartoon. I also liked this one.Yeah, I wish I knew more about the Nuremberg Trials, and our legal relationship to them. Mayer only mentions the Trials a few times, and not in depth. She does say: "Yet, almost precisely on the sixtieth anniversary of the famous war crimes tribunal's judgment in Nuremberg, which established what seemed like an immutable principle, that legalisms and technicalities could not substitute for individual moral choice and conscience, America became the first nation ever to authorize violations of the Geneva Conventions."

I also thought those principles were immutable. For whatever reason - lessons from my mother? Hollywood? School? I don't know - I've always believed that the Nuremberg Trials were incredibly important, and the main thing I knew about them was that a person couldn't just say "I was just following orders" to get out of breaking the law.

Evidently, the lessons from the Nuremberg Trials don't matter much anymore. The Geneva Convention doesn't matter anymore. Nice things for other people to follow - but not the United States. That seems to be the lessons we're learning now - that supersede the ones from my youth.

cowboyangel said...

Liam,

So, why did he release the memos to begin with? That's what I don't understand.

It really feels to me like he and his advisers didn't think this one through very much.

I guess I think - hope - that this can simply be handled by the Attorney General's office. It's a good test of Holder's independence from Obama, which is the way things are supposed to work and haven't for the last eight years. I'm fine with Obama just shutting up about it all, as long as I know that Holder's conducting a legitimate investigation.

Politically, I understand why Obama wouldn't want to deal with this right now. (Though, again, why did he release the memos to begin with, then?) But I just don't think we as a people can let this stuff slide. For one thing, it would set a horrible and deadly precedent in the world. Second, how will we be able to successfully fight Al Qaeda if Muslim countries see us let all of these people go free? That would be a huge blow in defeating the root causes of their kind of fundamentalism.

In terms of the politics, I say let the Republican Party become the Party of Torture. It will fit well with their extremist image.

I guess I still have hope in Obama being creative and intelligent in dealing with these kinds of issues. What he needs to do is make a major speech, as he did on racism. Get some of the many conservatives who fought against Bush-Cheney about the issue to back him up. For God's sake, this all about the Constitution and America's highest ideals. That's why John Yoo's good friend Jack Goldsmith wound up fighting against him and having to resign. It wasn't hard for the military or the FBI or serious conservatives within the Bush administration to recognize what was at stake. Why can't the liberals make these arguments? Are they that out of shape?

Liam said...

Good points all around.

Any idea how this is playing outside the left? Do people care?

Liam said...

"So, why did he release the memos to begin with? That's what I don't understand."

I think he's trying to walk a thin line between what is right and what he needs to do (even though he's tripping a bit). He also has institutional things to deal with -- i.e., he has to work with the CIA.

cowboyangel said...

I know that Shepard Smith from Fox gets it! :-) You've seen his outburst by now, I assume? I have to admit, not only am I impressed that he stood up to the idiots on Fox, but he used "rat's ass" perfectly. I have tremendous respect for any media person who uses "rat's ass" well.

Beyond Smith, the wackos are responding as usual.

I've seen/read interviews with some of the lawyers and intelligence and military people who pushed back against Bush earlier, and I think there are mixed feelings about prosecution. I saw a poll on Friday that said most Americans don't want prosecution. I forget the percentage - I was in a hurry when I saw it.

I think he's trying to walk a thin line between what is right and what he needs to doSure, but why release the memos NOW? In the midst of everything else that's going on?

The only thing I can think of is that they just didn't expect it to become a big deal. Which would be a huge political miscalculation on their part. But how else to explain the timing of this? He certainly didn't need the controversy on top of everything else he's doing.

But that would also explain his inconsistency. They didn't think it would be a big deal, so they didn't have much of a plan in place for dealing with the firestorm. That's my theory. The politically shrewd and highly calculating Obama team got caught with their pants down. I mean, he and Gibbs and Emmanuel didn't even seem coordinated on message last weekend and Monday.

And why wasn't Holder brought into this IMMEDIATELY? It took about four days for his name to come up.

It's all very weird.

cowboyangel said...

OK, this explains a lot: ‘Holy Hell’ Over Torture MemosA fierce internal battle within the White House over the disclosure of internal Justice Department interrogation memos is shaping up as a major test of the Obama administration's commitment to opening up government files about Bush-era counterterrorism policy.

As reported by NEWSWEEK, the White House last month had accepted a recommendation from Attorney General Eric Holder to declassify and publicly release three 2005 memos that graphically describe harsh interrogation techniques approved for the CIA to use against Al Qaeda suspects. But after the story, U.S. intelligence officials, led by senior national-security aide John Brennan, mounted an intense campaign to get the decision reversed, according to a senior administration official familiar with the debate. "Holy hell has broken loose over this," said the official, who asked not to be identified because of political sensitivities. . . .

The continued internal debate explains the Justice Department's decision late Thursday to ask a federal judge for another two-week delay (until April 16) to file a final response in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union seeking the release of the memos.
That was a story from April 3, written by Michael Isikoff, who's quite good on this stuff.

So the ACLU filed a FOIA request, and Holder wanted to release the documents. Bet he's on Obama's shit list right now.

But good for him anyway.

This basically disproves my theory that they didn't think it would be a big deal.

So the question changes from "Why did they release the memos now? to "Why weren't they more prepared for the hullabaloo?"

If there was so much contention WITHIN the administration about this, you think they would've been even more prepared. Strange.