tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post9144214381226416673..comments2024-02-16T18:07:05.844-05:00Comments on ZONE: What Will It Take?cowboyangelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-40140026615482322842007-08-19T19:15:00.000-04:002007-08-19T19:15:00.000-04:00Basically, the Democrats are going to have to capt...<I>Basically, the Democrats are going to have to capture both the congress and the executive branch for this thing to be wrapped up.</I><BR/><BR/>Forgot this point. My question now, though, is will the Democrats really do much even if they do get congress and the executive branch? I feel like they're equivocating. Not only do I find this disturbing for the future of Iraq, but I think they're blowing an opportunity to capture the White House. Obama, in particular, puzzles me, giving up his one trump card - voting against the war. If he's no different in the end than Hillary, I think people will choose Hillary as the nominee, because she has more experience and is more known to them. I really question his strategy.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-41500131766062390262007-08-19T19:10:00.000-04:002007-08-19T19:10:00.000-04:00Jeff,You're right, there's not really one war goin...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>You're right, there's not really one war going on. There's a civil war, tribal power plays, the U.S. Occupation, Al-Qaeda, etc. It does morph, doesn't it?<BR/><BR/>It probably would get a lot worse in the short run if we pulled out. But in the long run, I think it's the only way to resolve the situation. We can't make people like each other any more than we can force them to embrace "democracy." That's been obvious. They've simply got to find their own solution. It could easily be ugly. (On the other hand, I wonder if we keep saying it will be so ugly because we can't imagine other people fixing things better than we can.)<BR/><BR/>I think we do have a responsibility - to pull out. We have to do it in a responsible way. And we need to push for more international involvement, though, to be honest, at this point, I'm not sure who's going to want to go in and clean up our mess. The UN left because of security considerations. Have they gotten any better? I don't think so. We need to keep working with the Iraqis - I just think it needs to be done from "outside" the situation rather than in the middle of it. I think Richardson's points are good ones - that we'll only be able to negotiate with all the crucial parties when we are no longer occupiers. People simply don't like being occupied.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-28617674187136719972007-08-19T18:58:00.000-04:002007-08-19T18:58:00.000-04:00Crystal,Thanks for the links. See that Tony Campo...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the links. See that Tony Campolo co-drafted the statement. I saw him back in the 80s, kind of liked his stuff back then.<BR/><BR/>I think one of the strategies that should be developed further is the spiritual one - bringing together many different religious people. The Tikkun ad is a start, but looking at the signees, it's sort of the typical liberal thing. I think at this point, there are more conservative people who could be reached in a Day of Prayer and Fasting or something along those lines.<BR/><BR/>And then there's the rock-throwing.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-42641247549264670382007-08-19T18:04:00.000-04:002007-08-19T18:04:00.000-04:00William,This was a great post. Sorry about not get...William,<BR/><BR/>This was a great post. Sorry about not getting back to it sooner. I think as long as George Bush is in this lame duck presidency, with nothing to gain, and nothing to lose politically, it is going to continue on like this until the end of his term. Basically, the Democrats are going to have to capture both the congress and the executive branch for this thing to be wrapped up.<BR/><BR/>Still, there are difficulties even with that. The problem with Iraq is that ALL of the solutions are bad ones (There is a term for that... I can't remember what it is. I heard Tom Ricks, the author of "Fiasco" use it once).<BR/><BR/>On top of that, General Petraus (sic?) is smarter than Rumsfeld and all the previous generals put together, so while he might be achieving some limited military successes, and raising the hopes a some hawks, it sort of masks the fact that the Maliki government is making absoultely no progress with sectarian reconciliation. Oddly enough, al Qaeda seems to have overplayed it's hand in Anbar and Diyala. I think it was in "Assasins' Gate" that I read about the hierarchy of loyalties in Iraq:<BR/><BR/>1) Family<BR/>2) Tribe<BR/>3) Islamic Sect<BR/>4) Iraq.. A very distant 4th.<BR/><BR/>I think too many people are taking heart out of the fact that the Sunni tribal leaders seem to have turned against al Qaeda, but they seem to not want to see the fact that they are also biding their time for the real anticipated showdown with the Shia. This Iraq thing morphs all the time. It's like a different war every year, but it's still a disaster every year.<BR/><BR/>Them there is the big question. What happens when we finally leave? Although Iraq may seem like it is in total meltdown in a full-scale civil war right now, I actually do think it could be a lot worse. Remember what happened when the Israelis pulled out of Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon and allowed the Phalangists to go in? I fear that such massacres are going to happen on a <I>massive</I> scale once we have pulled out of Iraq. Ultimately, having made this mess and having "broken" Iraq, what is our responsibility here? Do we still have one at this point?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-56839392317745091432007-08-16T16:44:00.000-04:002007-08-16T16:44:00.000-04:00Good post, William.It deserves a lengthy reply. ...Good post, William.<BR/><BR/>It deserves a lengthy reply. I'll post one up when I get a chance. <BR/><BR/>Crystal,<BR/><BR/>I just started reading a book about Peacework by Henri Nouwen. The foreward and editing were done by John Dear. It's very good, I recommend it highly.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-71746763358768406122007-08-15T15:00:00.000-04:002007-08-15T15:00:00.000-04:00I saw this in a column of peace activist John Dear...I saw this in a column of peace activist John Dear SJ a while ago. It was an interfaith ad place in the NY Times - <A HREF="http://www.tikkun.org/iraqpeace/" REL="nofollow">link</A> and <A HREF="http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:IwmmosqOINQJ:www.tikkun.org/An_EthicalWay_NYT4_2.pdf+an+ethical+way+to+end+the+war+in+iraq+ad&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us" REL="nofollow">link</A> - An Ethical Way To End The War In Iraq. Kind of interesting.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.com