tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post7287963216934799416..comments2024-02-16T18:07:05.844-05:00Comments on ZONE: The Golden Orchardcowboyangelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-31343210077389463252007-06-26T16:14:00.000-04:002007-06-26T16:14:00.000-04:00The tattoo post was deleted.Ignatius of Loyola - b...The tattoo post was deleted.<BR/><BR/>Ignatius of Loyola - best Spanish mystic :-)<BR/><BR/>The Illuminati! The Cathars! You guys discuss the most fun stuff. I saw a recent review of a book on the Cathars at History House - <A HREF="http://www.historyhouse.com/book/0375404902/" REL="nofollow">The Yellow Cross - the history of the last Cathars</A>crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-3004411290004795682007-06-26T15:18:00.000-04:002007-06-26T15:18:00.000-04:00I had to go back to my orals notes to check about ...I had to go back to my orals notes to check about the Alumbrados. Yes, they really are a 16th-century group, but they came out of a 15th-century phenomenon known as the "Beatas" that were something like the Beguines in northern Europe (a lay woman's group), and were very influenced by Italian mystic women like Catherine of Siena or Angelina of Foligno (both of whom are very intense). There was also the movement of the Jeronimite order (you know the church above the Prado, right?) that came out of the very active hermit movement in late 14th and 15th-century Spain.<BR/><BR/>I do want to here you define "mysticism." And damnit, we do need to get back to the Grassroots.<BR/><BR/>There was a very small penetration of Catherism into Spain, and the inquisition was very effective with them. Their main thing was a world-hating dualism -- do you find that in Abulafia's work?Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-18137916503015507582007-06-26T14:50:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:50:00.000-04:00Liam, Catholic Encyclopedia says the Alulbrados we...Liam, Catholic Encyclopedia says the Alulbrados were sixteenth century. Do you think otherwise? I never made the connection between "Alumbrados" and Illuminati! Alumbrar! Claro! <BR/><BR/>I need to do some reading about the Cathars. A lot of them came down into the peninsula after they were destroyed in southern France. There may be connections to Abulafia's work, though Idel pretty much dismisses this idea in one of his books. Still, they were around in northern Spain from the late 1100s and especially in the 1200s. I'm guessing the Cathars hooked up with the Templars to establish the Illuminati, which, as we know, eventually leads - via the Rosicrucians and Tom Hanks - to Mark Cuban.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-7559140538266784962007-06-26T14:39:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:39:00.000-04:00Liam,Defining mysticism. Yes, I've realized that'...Liam,<BR/><BR/>Defining mysticism. Yes, I've realized that's essential, and I don't have a good answer yet. There are some good definitions out there, and Scholem devotes an entire section of one his books on the subject. I need to re-read that and some other things. The problem is how mixed up the "genres" were at that time. Was such-and-suc a mystical work, a theological work, poetry, philosophy, etc.? Perhaps we can discuss this at that most mystical of places, Grassroots Tavern. Such a conversation seems to beg for such a setting.<BR/><BR/>Aren't the Alumbrados post-1492? Or did they start earlier?cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-37075577626425528842007-06-26T14:33:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:33:00.000-04:00Crystal,Thanks for the Who's Who link! I missed y...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the Who's Who link! I missed your tattoo post and can't find it. Do you have a link?cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-52515788986555889142007-06-26T14:25:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:25:00.000-04:00I'd love to discuss it with you. I think the Visig...I'd love to discuss it with you. I think the Visigothic kingdom was very interesting. There was a lot of political instability, but then again there was that also in Rome, al-Andalus, and the northern kingdoms. The economy had shrunk, but a few scholars now are saying it wasn't as bad as once thought.<BR/><BR/>I don't know a whole lot about 15th century Spain, but there was a fair amount of political turmoil, including a civil war. The Church was having problems all through Europe -- at one point there were three separate popes (one of them Spanish). There were a number of mystical groups throughout Europe at this time, including in Spain, where they were called the Alumbrados and ran into problems with the Inquisition. <BR/><BR/>How would you define mysticism?<BR/><BR/>Crytsal -- IPAO and I are thinking of getting tattoos for each other as wedding presents.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-11224037583278739702007-06-26T14:07:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:07:00.000-04:00Interesting post! Doubtless your fixation on the ...Interesting post! Doubtless your fixation on the Visigoths was sparked by my tattoo post. <BR/><BR/>The Templars and Francis in Spain ... :-)<BR/><BR/>One of my favorite links is <A HREF="http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/whoswho.html" REL="nofollow">who's who in the history of mysticism</A> - it has a list of Jewish and Islamic mystics as well as catholic and non-catholic christians.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-21607755102319734312007-06-26T13:34:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:34:00.000-04:00Thanks for the comments. I was cowering in fear i...Thanks for the comments. I was cowering in fear in my closet, terrified that I had said something amazingly stupid about medieval history. It's probably just as well that I took out that line on bad Visigothic television programming.<BR/><BR/>I want to go further with this, and I'm going to need your help. At some point, I'd like to sit down with you and discuss.<BR/><BR/>I meant to preface the post by saying I'm not a scholar by any means, and there is much, much more research that needs to be done on many aspects of what I've written. The period before 711 being one essential project. I need to know about the overall culture before the Moors arrived, for both the Christians and the Jews.<BR/><BR/>I didn't mean, and I don't think Asin Palacios implies, that the Visigoths didn't have any culture. It's more what kind of culture did they have, what did they emphasize, and how did that affect the development of mystical pursuits? There's also the Roman collapse to consider. From everything I've read, it seems like the economic and political stability previously known under the Romans began to break down towards the end of the empire, as it did elsewhere. How much that changed under the Visigoths, I need to discover. It doesn't sound like there was a lot of political stability - many rulers within a short time, a good number of them murdered by rival families. Nor does the economy seem to have been thriving, at least in comparison with the economy uinder the Romans or what came about under the Moors. I will say that the V's aren't coming off very well in any of the books I've read. And we are dealing with the fun-loving guys who sacked Rome. But I hear you. It's an easy theme, and I definitely need to investigate more. I'm sure some Visigothic scholars will explain why their boys have been misunderstood all this time. Part of the problem is that they follow the Romans and precede Al-Andalus - two pretty amazing cultures.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, the Neo-Platonic thing is crucial, obviously. What's also interesting is how strong the Aristotelian influence was - both Maimonides and Averroes trying to graft it onto Jewish and Muslim thought. The mystics were doing the same. And, eventually, I think the mystics move beyond both to a degree and create something new. But it was definitely key to prime the pump, it seems.<BR/><BR/>Another thing I need help on is figuring out which other Christians on the Peninsula were pursuing a mystical line. So thanks for the info on Ildephonsus.<BR/><BR/>Finally, after such a fervent period of mystical experience in the late 1200's and early 1300s, why does there seem to be so little in the hundred plus years BEFORE 1492?cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-46175980203564244772007-06-26T11:51:00.000-04:002007-06-26T11:51:00.000-04:00Excellent post, Batman. I'm not really a scholar o...Excellent post, Batman. I'm not really a scholar of the Visigoths, but I don't think the culture of pre-Islamic Spain was that poor. I think that it did suffer from a cultural division between the more learned Catholic Romans and the ruling Arian Visigoths which was only resolved with the Visigothic conversion to Catholicism in 589. From 589 to 711 there was quite the cultural flourishing, and even one of the kings (Sisebut) was penning verse. Isidore's encyclopedia contain a bit of everything, including what science there was at the time. St Ildephonsus composed a work on the Virginity of Mary that was an important early work of Marian devotion/mysticism.<BR/><BR/>In fact, the addition of "filioque" to the creed, a theological time bomb that still creates tensions between the Catholics and the Orthodox, originated in Visigothic Spain. <BR/><BR/>At the same time, the more intense, speculative mysticism that also expressed itself in Islamic and Jewish mysticism had a good part of its roots in Greek neo-platonic philosophy that really didn't hit any part of the West until the wonderfully strange and brilliant Irish scholar John Scotus Erigena translated the works of Pseudo-Dionysus into Latin in the ninth century.<BR/><BR/>The Irish, Cowboy, are always involved somehow.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.com