tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post7175872348747806701..comments2024-02-16T18:07:05.844-05:00Comments on ZONE: What Went Wrong? The Clinton Campaign Dissects Itselfcowboyangelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-45665112456861243332008-05-19T13:25:00.000-04:002008-05-19T13:25:00.000-04:00PS: I don't remember Donohue "forgiving" Edwards a...PS: I don't remember Donohue "forgiving" Edwards after he fired his bloggers. D*******g.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-74690666965636833662008-05-19T13:24:00.000-04:002008-05-19T13:24:00.000-04:00I don't think the Clinton campaign did much with W...I don't think the Clinton campaign did much with Wright because, as you noted, they didn't have to. I disagree with the idea of how much he is "fair political game." Ayers much more so. Obama has been able to run a great campaign without many guilt by association attacks, and with the Clintons there were more than enough possibilities. Obviously it would be naive to assume that people wouldn't go after him, but I dislike the approach that it's a virtue in politics to take cheap shots just because you can.<BR/><BR/>The Wright thing will come up in the general election, but unless Obama handles it really badly, I think it's run its course and I don't think it will damage Obama much more -- any lost votes because of it are already lost.<BR/><BR/>Bill Donohue is a hypocritical right-wing hack and d*******g.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-44391203442370193812008-05-19T09:55:00.000-04:002008-05-19T09:55:00.000-04:00Liam,How do you think the Clinton campaign acted R...Liam,<BR/><BR/>How do you think the Clinton campaign acted Rovian in terms of Jeremiah Wright?<BR/><BR/>You can't blame Hillary for the things Wright said and did. Are you referring to her saying that <I>she</I> wouldn't have stayed in a church like that?<BR/><BR/>Marc Ambinder offered <A HREF="" REL="nofollow" HTTP://MARCAMBINDER.THEATLANTIC.COM/ARCHIVES/2008/05/HILLARYLAND_WHAT_THE_HECK_HAPP.PHP>some response</A> a couple of days ago to Cottle's article. One the passage you're referring to, he says, "This relates to the larger problem of not having taken Obama seriously and then, when the time came to take him seriously, <B>being trapped in the wilderness of racial politics.</B>"<BR/><BR/>I would agree with that. If Clinton had brought Wright up back in 2007, she could've hit Obama a lot harder.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I don't think the Clintons actually did very much in the end with Wright. On one level, they didn't really have to - Wright was pretty damning stuff all on his own. And the media, G-d bless their corrupt little souls, did most of the work for her by obsessing on him. Though Wright even helped in that regard with his bizarre speech at the National Press Club.<BR/><BR/>You and I have different viewpoints on Wright, I think. To me, politically speaking, he was fair game. Any politician running against Obama would've made an issue out of Wright. Even Obama dis-invited him from his announcement speech in the beginning. You wouldn't do that unless you knew there was a problem.<BR/><BR/>Will be interesting to see what McCain does with Wright now. He got Hagee to make an apology to the Catholics, which Bill Donohoe accepted. (So easy to placate Donohoe when it's not a Chocolate Jesus sculpture but just calling the Church the Whore of Babylon!) To me, that signals that they will go after Wright and are trying to cover their backs.<BR/><BR/>Probably doing about what Hillary did, asking why Obama would stay in that church for so long - why he would have a crazy, angry black man (as they will portray Wright) as his spiritual mentor for 20 years. I don't think Barack ever came up with a good answer to that question. And distancing himself from Wright <I>now</I> doesn't resolve that issue. It's a question of judgment, which Obama keeps saying he has a lot of, even if he doesn't have experience. So if he doesn't have experience and he doesn't have good judgment, what's left?cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-820740862244487252008-05-19T07:16:00.000-04:002008-05-19T07:16:00.000-04:00Yeah, I don't get the idea from blogs that Iraq hu...Yeah, I don't get the idea from blogs that Iraq hurt Edwards, but then I think about people like my brother who was pro-Obama from the beginning. He said, "I'm a one-issue voter. I won't vote for anybody who had anything to do with this Goddamn war." I like Edwards and I believe he is sincere, but at the same time I do recognize that you have to believe he really changed his views from when he was in the Senate, and not just on the war.<BR/><BR/>As far as the Wright thing goes, yeah, they may be incompetent Roves, but even trying to do it well was a problem. Attacks like that may have worked to sway a number of independents, and the GOP and her "Hillary-is-a-fighter" base may have loved it, but after eight years of Bush-Rove, I think it turned off a lot of people, hence her falling approval rating. I don't think they stopped for a moment to think how ugly her tactics seemed to a lot of people.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-41361524081579491402008-05-18T13:52:00.000-04:002008-05-18T13:52:00.000-04:00blester,Thanks for stopping by. Yeah, you're not ...blester,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by. <BR/><BR/>Yeah, you're not the first person to complain about Mark Penn making millions of dollars on this campaign, despite having done - by general consensus - a terrible job. <BR/><BR/>But you know the really sad part? He'll get hired again. <BR/><BR/>Which is one reason you or your boyfriend should think about contacting someone like TPM Muckracker about the invented poll data. I'm sure they'd be interested. And I would personally love to see it turn into a more widely covered investigative report. It would be a fitting send-off for Penn.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-41782080649766496622008-05-18T13:15:00.000-04:002008-05-18T13:15:00.000-04:00Excellent analysis, but the missing part conce4rni...Excellent analysis, but the missing part conce4rning Mark Penn is the fact -- and I say fact because my boyfriend works for PSB and Burson-Marsteller and he knows-- Penn NEVER did half the polls he billed the campaign for. This pig is so sure he is always right, he cancelled at least 20 polls before they went into the field -- and told his people, including my boyfriend, to produce power points with invented data that agreed with his conclusions. But he billed for them anyway.<BR/>The dumbest thing this campaign will do now is pay Mark Penn, Burson-Marsteller or WPP Group another dime.<BR/>But this cmpaign has pretty much done everything dumb, so Mark Penn walks away with millions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-52993429947958442722008-05-18T10:17:00.000-04:002008-05-18T10:17:00.000-04:00Liam,I don't think Iraq hurt Edwards very much, be...Liam,<BR/><BR/>I don't think Iraq hurt Edwards very much, because he turned against it early on. Hillary went on for years. He may have lost a few voters to Obama, but I never sensed that the war was hurting a lot. The blogoshpere, for example, really liked him. He ran a very Left campaign. Maybe that's another reason Hillary couldn't go left - Edwards occupied the territory and got all that support. His 2 big problems seemed to be a message people didn't care about and a lack of authenticity. What do you think?<BR/><BR/>I simply don't know how the Clinton people couldn't "unearth" Obama's association with Jeremiah Wright "in time." At the very beginning, when Obama announced his candidacy a year and a half ago, he dis-invited Wright to speak, and there were several articles noting potential controversy. It was obvious the Obnama people were concerned about Wright even then. If a dolt like me could figure that out, you'd think the Clinton campaign would've been all over that the next day. Rovian or not - Wright was an incredibly easy target. Yet the Clinton folks didn't seem to pay any attention. They were too busy taking tea on the terrace or something.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-66114479502605678072008-05-18T09:55:00.000-04:002008-05-18T09:55:00.000-04:00The Monty Python bit was pure genius.I think that ...The Monty Python bit was pure genius.<BR/><BR/>I think that a scandal on the level of Eliot Spizter or worse is the only thing that would sink Obama now. I also think you're right about Iraq -- and the fact that none of those people see that is rather indicative about how out of touch they are. I wonder how much better Edwards might have done if he had voted against the war.<BR/><BR/>Also:<BR/>"Devastating vulnerabilities such as Obama's associations with Wright and Ayers were not unearthed by the campaign's vaunted research team in time to be fully taken advantage of--despite being readily available in the public domain."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's very typical of the Rovian way they approached the election, which really turned people off.<BR/><BR/>They just don't get it and I'm glad it's over (it really is).Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-763286683357335832008-05-18T09:48:00.000-04:002008-05-18T09:48:00.000-04:00Jeff, I said I wouldn't say it's over until Obama ...Jeff, I said I wouldn't say it's over until Obama got 2025 delegates. Anything can happen.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I was surprised that so many Hillary staffers would start analyzing their campaign at this point, which seems to me a real admission of defeat on their part.<BR/><BR/>Even getting crushed in Kentucky, Obama will clinch the majority of pledged delegates after Tuesday. He's taken the lead in Super delegates - and there seems to be a clear trend towards him. I mean, he got utterly demolished in W. Virginia and still wound up with something like 10 super delegates to Hillary's 1 this week. On the popular vote, she could win if you include Florida and Michigan, but I think the only people who are including those states in a popular vote total are Clinton supporters.<BR/><BR/>I think Obama would have to make a major gaffe for her to have any chance at this point. A REALLY major gaffe. He ultimately handled the Wright thing pretty well (not including the fact that he should've separated himself from the guy a long time ago.)<BR/><BR/>Great point about the pattern of confusion, insularity and arrogance showing up in the Health Care initiative. I never thought her disaster with that got enough attention in this election. She kept talking about all of her experience - but that was the most public part of it for a long time, and it was total mess.<BR/><BR/>The arrogance. I remember reading a statement by one of the Senators who worked with her on the health care initiative, a pretty well known one - can't think of his name now. After the experience, he said Hillary Clinton was the most self-righteous person he had ever dealt with in his life. If you're running a bad campaign, it's going to be hard to listen to others and make adjustments if you think you're right about everything.<BR/><BR/>They mention Bill in one the Problems with Personnel part. But, sure, if you're a Hillary staffer, it's easier to throw Mark Penn under the bus, who's not popular in political circles, rather than a two-term president who happens to be married to your boss. The fact that at least one person said something means a lot more probably felt that way.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-76085816305640397912008-05-18T09:34:00.000-04:002008-05-18T09:34:00.000-04:00Crystal,It is hard to figure out how to do things ...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>It is hard to figure out how to do things on Facebook sometimes. In all honesty, I pretty much only use it to play Scrabulous. Liam's a little more into the overall Facebook experience - he could probably explain things to you better.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-38240340761190274812008-05-17T23:32:00.000-04:002008-05-17T23:32:00.000-04:00BTW, great riff on the Python piece.BTW, great riff on the Python piece.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-25622639361800491832008-05-17T22:59:00.000-04:002008-05-17T22:59:00.000-04:00Are you feeling confident enough about Obama in Or...Are you feeling confident enough about Obama in Oregon to say that this is over? Especially when he gets creamed in Kentucky like he did in West Virginia?<BR/><BR/><I>Hillary assembled a team thin on presidential campaign experience that confused discipline with insularity; they didn't know what they didn't know and were too arrogant to ask at a time early enough in the process when it could have made a difference</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that's a pattern with her. It reads very much like the same reason why her health care initiative went down in flames, causing the Democrats to lose control of Congress in 1994, not to mention the heavy-handed manner in which she addressed ever matter (legitimate ot illegitimate) that came at her, from the travel office brouhaha to the missing billing records.<BR/><BR/>I also find it odd that the general response on this sinking ship is to throw either Patti Solis Doyle or Mark Penn under the bus. There's plenty of blame to go around, but is her husband going to come under any scrutiny from this pack, or is his name still sacrosanct?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27601672.post-58940812754201179202008-05-17T22:12:00.000-04:002008-05-17T22:12:00.000-04:00This was actually too depressing for me to read, b...This was actually too depressing for me to read, but I did like the Monty Python part :)<BR/><BR/>I think I responded correctly to the facebook thing. I'm only really there in name alone - can't figure out how to do anything there.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.com